The Dallas Police and the Tramps

.. ,. .
l'au alao uiiU for • coUecud Mt of jucrvcUona 011 poUcy
Wd procedure ro ._ followed in tha abu M.e of apeclfjc ocdotn
t a lM canturr. Auac:Md la • capr of ow- C.arral Orckt book
• CGP'f a( our Code a( aM • COPJ o( O.pattautd '
PnK.e441r•.
JIC•JHitiiW
Youra .,..,, trulr,
. .-/
oJ. 1. Cunr q--
Chlcf or Pollee
&ncaoeuru1 l. Mlp .. locatjaa of oftlcua
J . 1\ltll't a alatu. .. n ta ftoa offtuu
l. Crowd c .. ttol lnttt'M:tlon
<t. A cop)' of Gtneral Or4u· 111.-prt u l'tll.at h
!: • • 1, l 06l - puaa ";,htiaM
l. Cu.J. o(
I. Dltput .. a u l Ope n. t in, Proc.edUre
COMMISSION EXHIBIT No. 13fiA-Continued

,.,. J ••• Qury
Othf . , .. u.
J..&r u, ttu -
.UijllCTa Uftic u W. II. lltnh .. •
'••''"''"' - Mo.,c•t.r U, l .. l
1 bad a OrMeS JwrJ aw"acna f o r 11J0 •·•· thla 4hta. Oft
c•p lathJI •f the ' ' n.nd J ury ... ,li,..n'- l re.turn.a co the
C\ tJ llall to the Tnfllc VfHce • • ucehe4 •1 •••h,_nl
lroa • • u ftlAOWQ aeraeant who \nfarwd • • t N t 1 ••• t G
uatfic at 14aJ.n a ad
I urlwd at Maln uW Uuutt • aWflll 9a.U • ·•· 1(flcar AU••
... atandl iiiC o " t l'w: n rth.,.at • ort • Y a r •h•l and I
-·• -•• • n..J a ..-k• • • ,.._. , ... 11 •od oft t rwo .ortft-at c o r - r
l ooll. lnl at Ilk' a NI •• 11'1• cr-uwd the a u hal
•t ,,.. ' •• ••
Otflccr M. 1.!"- a uhd Ia tel" I n t he _.,_,,,. .. a J.-owtwd
• otorcrcla a r.J w aabd bla \that tl•• poalUon ••• at that
,..... AI a ·
1
.n·olll•a lflJ U1 U • ·•• an watogwn .tt .. aa haUu ..
at wa lhat a-n .... hnlnc an II'U•pdc Ml l wra . Allca and I
ruahtd Ut .,,. u n• t aaa&.1ance t nJ U((lcer &h.· ndloed toe u
•bul.ancc. lhc u.n wa ..,proalAa tdJ 100 to UO hat .,ttb. of
.-Ia • • on Uw wal a ld.fo e( Uo wat on oft tiM 1 r•••· Altar
tbe aftbwh i'ICa ••• loackd aliS 10n. , I weal to the nottMaat
rarMr ol uaa: latetMc:t l oa t o help ttlt:lt Ct'Owd c:oatrol a nd • ·atclt
toe any wwaual tacidaeua. T!w a.otoccaGa Caaf wat: •o f.&at.
lu-eu, •a.J• a tum nor th lat o Howttaa. :rtMo •Urcade waa
a ppnda a taly halfway put • r p.;thlon wM• I N••d lM /ltat
-.bOt. I dJd oot .__._ When h va.a c-alo1 fro••
fl .. peouluUr twtlalUH,
<tJ ,u,..,
O((lc. .. W. II. Da.U.
battle Dhhtoa
COMMISSION EXHIBIT No. 1:168- Continued
Nr. J. a. Cwrr
Qld of lVI lee
. .,.
&U"It'Tt ot lic.e r ". a. Ia dill u
.........
Wbtln the ahet a woce lhed1 I looU4 "P and cOfdd. •• ...
UJODe ot .n)' t h l ftt owe of th.e wt nJova, 1 u.ou •
t be ahOta wen c:--'• ftoa top of tbe: t.tldJDI'•
1
a.apoecthUr • • Wtt.ct,
JJ( !'
w ••••• ,... ••
Patrolaaa, fniUe DhUl ..
COMMISIIION EXJIIAIT No. 1368--Continued ·
• r. J ••• a,,...,.
a11d of )'oUce
Sht
,lilly 1• , ltM
•wuwrn ......... t of o. '· •'-··-··
On Mo...-bn 12, UU, I w-u war\lftt ItO ...S •• uah ... •
crowd toDtrol hr tM par-a4c. I vae aaaltlllt4 H tho pa..-.U
rowta f roa l .aln and Pla14 t o Ul• a.nd ll •u..toa. At . , pcoaJ-
aald'f 12119 p.a. aa a. tbulance •U clhp&tcbed to lOO K.
lbuton for u .. hwu " trtl• W. W1A eft 11\.a
-•t ' ' "• ol t be 100 block eort .. Uo"noa. n. ubulaDC-1
departd Cr011 tnh locatlaa Jwat a UtU• t.fon UtU •·••
To lhe Wat of •r taowle4••• Uw p••a4a • • • l• the dDwntowa
an• at thh tlae. Tt• parade ww .. a..a1 at .,..,.
at 1 2t 26 p. u.
ft Na t l\c flnt • hYta were (had. l wu wltt\ Uftlwr;/.6• ,
U nc a nd - -•• aaal .. '"i t.h t M cr.-.a ••t .. • u.
•oath ••4•, Juat "'•' of llolf• ... 4tr-oat. .._ baant ..... .
We - •• a t t:bat u.- t o O.laralM ttbere the ... ,,
•rlliDatad fi'Oao
Uur tbuuc. tloaa n1udhc Ml' •••••--"'..- wn lor at'OIIIIl
c.oouol. aocl LM,l .. tha: way oa....- for me _,.,., ....
:;;7V.
O. Y. , .. ,.._.._,
.. cput: e f r.u ..
Tnllt• Dhhlo•
CoMMI88ION ExlllBIT No. 1358-Continued
,
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6 9
P'l ES I D.E:UT Is
ON THE
SSIN. TI CN OF KENNEDY
Da llr. s, Texr. s
r hursc'r y , .pril 9, 1964
11:30:- . .M.
The Pr es ic'cnt ' s Conunission met, pur su[. n t to
rec es s, ,,t 11 : 30 c1 . m. , i n t he off i c e of t he U. S .
_ ttorne y, 301 Pos t office Buildi ng, Bryon r nd Ervuy
Da llas , Texzs .
PRESENT :
D8 vi d \',' . Bel i n , St r ff Counsel
Hel en L2 i drich , Reporter
(
-_. ,... ,..
I Cl
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()
c E

.!.) T
N
(:
c·
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,,
1:.
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.
1
' you
c·
: .. n:, l1i :· tsc y em, .. ,.h
"
L ;::,
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h: Do you solei,ln1y ·:· tell Lhe: t ,·u,:h. hn
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rnC nothing buc the .PULh. so helD you
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I do.
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1-l"l •
Y('U •• J'lC •·; '·" r•t!l r'
J - (. 1 ' .::J ·- - ' '. _., -·- '
you
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i·IR. H.' TCN.SSS: D. V. IL l'lmess, iX 1_ s :)ol icc
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B:SUN:
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MR. BELIN:
Is th;, l in D: lL s',
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l·IR. li'.TJlESS: Yes, sir.
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DDll:.s ?o!icc
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>IR. IL' T::NESS: n t of •)o] ice.
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B::<:LIN:
Ilo,·: long h: vo you been 1•:il:h
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i·El.. Little over 17 yc:·rs.
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!-lR. BBLIN: l)]r: :.re yuu, sir"
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;.m. Dtc: you go to in D: 11:
25
7l
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Rigb school.
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:.In. n;::LIN: Tlwn l':h:: c:ic! you
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One yc<'r \\'o"::uc' for the
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:n .. FLLIN: Then \\·h; i:'>
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IO !Io::el in •. he : uc>cinr; office.
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yc: :.·s.
. -·")
•·• I..
E::T,IN:
··icc h· ·•r.-p
_._;:J -..:__,-
·o?
Co: :· t Cu: rr'.
I •::z s EO c S\": i_n 'S ;.{" t e !';ec on:'
··:-.nsCJIJrt : the . ir,H? of my ·'isch: ·go.
BELIN: Honor: bJe c'isch: rge""
H_. : Y , sir.
B.SLIN:
Re: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT
JOHN FITZGERALD KENNEDY,
NOVEMBER 22, 1963, DALLAS, TEXAS
Caller
61 (Patrolmen G. W. TEMPLE and
R. E. VAUGHN)
Conversation
We have information from the
agent out here at T&P. Said
that the train is stopped on
the overpass, the triple over-
pass; that there was a person
jumping at the ninth boxcar
from the front ·engine. Said
he is hiding in a car.
Dispatcher (HULSE and MC DANIEL) Is the train stopped there now?
61 (TEMPLE and VAUGHN)
I'm in behind the Texas School
Depository. He has the train
stopped. He said it is the
ninth car from the engine.
Gondola-type car; said he is
hunkered down inside.
Dispatcher (HULSE and MCDANIEL) Any squad Elm and Houston ...
392 (Criminal Investigation
Division)
392 (Criminal
Division)
Dispatcher (HULSE and MC DANIEL) 392 (Criminal Investigation
Division), did you receive that
information?
392 (Criminal Investigation
Division)
10-4. En route.
Dispatcher (HULSE and MC DANIEL) 10-4.
241 (Patrolman J. P. HOLLINGS-
WORTH)
361 (Criminal Investigation
Division)
- 94 -
241 (HOLLINGSWORTH) en route.
361 (Criminal Investigation
Division) en route.
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y:)u
·. n .:
r l l
( _,_ -"-.
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i_ (
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-- ..1 I . 1"(' '·
- . ·.., I' hey
<.I
"I
I
I
Then c.itc: you :.roun< tho
fhei1 V/h, t you
I l':ent b:cl: : n•.
to
0'(:' t
''
tlw
to s owe
le<:vins cu: of F .,·
··o r,.o
l. D
f
· ·e· 1· rrh1·
L ._,
c2rs thrt
the y:- ··
'. 1 l
e ..... _ '
\·.·e (''Cl;· :. 1. Oll" f.·e1' "'h'· ·
- . - t-. - b 1.,. \... ..:. :...
I'<>' in the·,·e, n( \Ye IJUllec' some peo;":lle off of there
:.nn took :;hem ,:o the sl::
;·.rrL IL' i .. : .. 'LC:SS: HlDS : ncl hoboes.
HR. It' ;_:·:tmss: Yes I s i :r.
?hen you
wrs 211 my be-
)
83
1 lc8ving, to my l:norilec."gc, i..n rll Lhc
2 e h"'· severr>l officer·s wo·cking in th2 t
3
MR. BZLIN: Do you knor: whet her or not . nyone
4 found ny SUSlJic i ous people of r ny kind o ... · cure
s C. own t he i n t he rr. i 1 · o:-
1
y; rd?
6
W1 . H.'. 1I:NESS : Yes, sir . \; e mn c'c s omc r rres t:s,
1 I 'JU t some people in.
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H"3. . BELI N: \/ere t hese v: hrt you hoboes or
9 lll)S
0
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f'.-ffi . Hi :liCNESS : Yer:, sir .
11 ;.rn. BELI N: ','ere :11 questionec,?
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MR. Yes , si r, t hey r;ere to
13 Lhc auestioned .
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Mll . BELIN: /. ny guns of r. ny lr inc
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f ounc'?
IL"1.KNESS : Not t o my
MR . BELIN: I to go bLc k to t h is imos
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1\l inf . Do you remembe:t t he sn id to you "nd wh< t
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you to him whe n you fi r s t hi m?
MR. IL'.l.Iu'iESS : I i n L h::-. c c rowd up : here
1.. he rer' t he i ' C, n· · r d icl nyone see ny
1l; c e where t he s hot s c ome f rom, . nc t here wns
uni ·entified ners on poin ted to him, sr i d t hi s b oy
here it , s2w t he s hots, where t he s hots f rom,
Ln( he told me i t wa s .
)\-ffi . BELI N: Then ,,.b w iL.' he s::..y?
. ..
...

I
•
• • }I'
CGJllC' b· .. c !--: l1' tG ···o--.
1
>
f' '
J .. _ _, -
2 II . • ny.
3
1-Il.. !s
4
; .. m. H'.1::N7']3: ',orb.?r
1
in the Jfficc i.n .he;
5 II ll""" no· ·· · raon ·
- .... • ,., • j - '· ' • • • - '-' •
6
'!" D 'C'T T 'T •. h h . J • 1 • .,
•. 't • ..J...:. .. -..Ldi: . en V/ c cL1c you uo:
7
l·IR. ·.:ent \'/tth Lhc: ::
8 rcmc?n::.
9 \fP eve·---- si_nce':
1
J. L.l.. ___ ._._...JA .... •
10 riti.. I-L.
EvC?r si.nce.
II
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11!'1 E."T Tl\J. ; .'""" YCJ'l 0'1 ,;,!L'·y J"'r)'r'··,'Jlhc··' '/c' 1 cc,--: ... v •• _.I,J __ ..... ...___...__ .l .l ' ,;_.. , __ - _,__..._,.
12
>fT) H' ">T-... T-.rtCt YeC' ci_r
h.l"'!.. 0 ..,., .'.. .. ,_)' 0 o
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·,!")
• 1 ·.'I. 0
BELIN:
:;ni_piT 'l
-- "'-t->"
14
1'-1:1. IL". :']IJfSS3 :
"'t.l'J"""Vl."'l·no· ;·]1n 'I'"ffic n"'fic."'·
., L '-' '- , .._, '-' '-' < - - • ...-'.l. - '-' -
15 II £,.on •.;, 'n "'i.e, .. · lono· "he D' r·re ·'ou··e "o ··nr
.L • 1 • • L . '-· _ __.. .• L- , ••• , '-' ._. --' _ 1 '
16 11 Hous iJi1 •
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by?
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shn
' ·1 " .. " · " , 1 '' · 3 G · · "
., 1e •. e \,e .. e you . , OUJL p.m ..
:.JR. Il' 1:1ESS: .'t M:'in Houston.
:•1R. B2LIN:
Cn the or of H ustcn
:.m. Il'RI:li.2SS: ·:es. side of Houscon.
-., 'T)


you wrcch :he come
\!R H.. Y .
•• ... • J. . \;'J es, s 1r.
i·IR.
'.'.'C?re you •dwn you rc' the
·r: i c: i' i c h
73
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; 0 . hn T . '('11
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•
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•·n
.'L_ •
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:.m. IF·l:·:NESS: ·.:hen I the fir,;t
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IS
!6
·. o you by th::-t')
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:.m. H:: I''.NE:i)S: ',,hen I Lhe first shot :·nd
!8
s:--.•; the Jresiclent 's c:··,· :.lmost come to , stop <..nd some
19
of 9i1.i.ng off che c:r. I •::ent brcli: the
20
to gee my
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[.f'l. BZLIN: You were in the rJrocess of c:oing
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th:·t \'.'hen you he:.rri the ::w' third shot?
23 H."· :t:-JofESS: Yes, s t : ...
24
:.m. B.EL! N: .he,·e cij.c
1
the shol.s sounc' li.l;e they
25
I
; -.
- ..!.. ' •
2 T C OU l ·. il ' c
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:-,....., l l
\,.. 1..- -'- L •
5 Yes.
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I ··:en:
8 c he
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Dy th,, ')CO)le. '.'.llcn I
11
v:cn t i_n to c: h's ···e:
hi_' t'• ill''' '110 rn•otll1'
'" • A, t"; ..., ., '
12 :11. scmcr:n-c let' u::; • th:.
the
14 :-EL
You me: n fl'Oiil soiile p(J'i.nt in
IS of L lw
16 y co. ..
17
l'-lR. DEL IN:
i)o you who • someone
18 No, sir.
19

21 I don't rcwcmbcr.
22
;.m. B:SL IN:
23 I •::cnt t"o·:·n to sec
24 if I cou1cl see ::nyone flcci.ng t ; "c·
25 .h; C: ir' yrm see·.·
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CO,
E2LIN:
H'"S. BELIN:
B:SLIN:
be the
t ( · o you n c s
r:, own.
C' i _ _,
u -· l '
·c•.c-, .-
- \...- .
·,.·tghc hc:l'O.
'"'r> £· l l .,..,. c:::: ,- v; n a --
·- ....... -' '-J ......,, "' ·- ::::..
You rc l_ng o { pl::-ce
extension of :i:lii1 p·o
'-'
Ii'_ 1ICN:2;SS: Vas to the 'Jl "Z"
'--" ' - - (._, ""'
..
I founc': little colored boy,
i:lc:-; who tolr: me he s:1-,· the shoes come fl·om
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Yes, str.
hco ·T.
Is c
!. i: 5. on l: h=.- you m: .-'c?
:·.El.
._ 'r"'r' • :-ill P""
... '--· ._, (.} - -c.,.
Ts thf' ycu·,, 0\':n
.;lr y·:u
:.:: ir. I curnc(
f.ffi. B.SLIN:
-_ > .s ,_
,, 11'' ' ' ' .
tt11s
in£ o•:m: t ion on
on :he kcl.: of my 3-•.·:heel. : n: hi.m in
'-11i IT
L 1 • n t.>
MJ. BELIN:
:.1'1.. BELIN:
Nov: ycu Jacn::ionc··
you :out s or:1e

Defore
c: E \':Lh r : t
1
.2:3G D.l!l., 26J to 531. 531
ts yow· r;ffi.ccin C:hc m<·in sU·'ion''
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h:
.n I h: ve hiJ,l y:i. t.h me n'Y.·.· : n. ·::c ·'C :C'C: l inc>;
''\') T)-·:1" 71-._T •
l 1 o l ;_· ' .I • ..l. i o
··--')• ·
,_ '- __ <
1
I, t .
. :_ J. . l
r::.v 1:.:,
Yes, sir.
the bl1t, 'in;>:
'r
· .. ' ._: c 12 :3C '):J. •·
off
T11 . !10 D1'0CC"
0
c:·o··· l ,. o-Ff !·hr.-'
"- L- l \_ ..::Ju i.___l "-''---'· --- t·, ...1.__.
you ·o·.·
C{ . .,.,1>.' 'I -· J
f. .. :. -ttly--sr. u; .. :.
'-' 0'" 1 0'1g
j_ l .' -·- l ')
18 co h· ve ';he ''t se: lee' off'?
19
·rhe scu:J wrs rriving by the
20
t:i.•,Je I off my mo'cm·cycle. There W8S rlrerdy
21 :c'(:tcion;·l_ squrC:s enroute.
22
MR. BELIN: How soon rfter 12:36 r:;.m., would yo
D s:y butl(ing wrs serled off?
24
It off then
25 I '.:: s b; he,·c "n:.' c·:;o · oche·.· •. 1211.
1
1) jl} .,
3 Yes, str.
4
5
6
Tn''i)''C'· 01'
. , .__) : \.... '-' -- n . '-\' ()
8
pc) T'l·
;_)_-...J '_I -• J. ', • By the you o L ho
9 f c'Clh 'l oJ the buil. 'ing
10 Yes, str, by c.-he I 1ut
11 tn hi_s c: I '.':ent 'UJ.\c' l, cely ::he
12 Jy c':.
13
14 seruencG. you to brcl: of
16
?·To, sir.
17
Y·Ju l:e11 me :: h: n:1enec'
18
I
19 to Jose th?_s
20 1] ri.ght.
21
So I took hi1n the
22
:r1. To 1nspect:or err?
23
24 ,,., s i"ighi: in f•:on c.
25
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2
4
B I !f :
6 .;he c: ,.r;
7
8 '11''''0
L ,_, - '
9 the :c.
10
>11. BELIN:
II
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. ,,
,.,
:'io
. '
13
JCIL e on how 1om:

14
BELIN:
IS
J
-,-J_' • '" '·!1n c" l l I" 'n'"
"-' L '- .._ ·'- ' ' '·
T . ' :-
-- .on .,
"jc you c: J.l"
'c'hon wh:: t (i/ y·Ju c'o''
'.'.:r s he: vy :
·L
t L . i_Jile
'
'-
n:
you
hr: ,:
l:o
'.',';
i -
'c
.. 0
o·e t-
::' ......
in .
,··ll
,,.h-.'-
- - <·:. .... '
in :· ny even c, r f c e •-· you
,;'i• you 0 on ohC' ;·: •."io?
16 cftcr you got the m:.n in chc
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·.ell --
>lR. BELIN: The witness in the c: r, whet
you
Stryed : t the b: ck of the builc'-
tng until I wrs relieved by
(.
:-m. BELIN:
:- h2 b " l '. 1
u 1_ .'. i.' J l g :
So you then went to che brck of
Yes.
80
1 :, you see h im t he ·e?
2
IL Yer, sir .
3
.r s he his c <. :?
4
H. sir, he \'r s by h is c r·
5
ne r his r .
6
i•ffi . BELIN: Do you know whei:her or not he hrd
7 gone i ns i<'e Lhe bui..l c'i ng yet?
a
H." 1.rn:;:ss : sir.
9
MR. You n you l'on ' t know':'
10
knm•· \'/ het her he gone in
11 or not . he r.·. s 'ing in fronc
12 :rking 1\ ll t he info·,mrtion '.Ir s bejng
f unneled to Inspec tor
14
MR . BSLIN: Di ci you t ell h i m you hrcl L wi.tnessr-
15
Ji' 1IrnESS : Yes, sir .
16
BELIN: In his c :. r?
17
"IR u .l •
1' • .{L 4 • .l....L'i .LJ u • Yes, sir .
18
MR. BELIN: 1\ t ... t time, h:::c che been
19 serl e{ off yet y ou tol d h im
20
fL\'11CNESS : .' t t hnt time?
21
BELIN: \,'hen y ou told Inspector Sr.wyer t hr.t
22 you hrd r wit ness t h<:t s n i d t he shot c rme from the
23 buil...:ing, un to t hr.c prrticulr.r moment, hrod the front
)
24
9nrt of t he building been ser. led off y et?
25
• .· Yes s 1· ,.
' ... .
..
..
lr: i_'c·
' .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
c:.
u;;c
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11. .
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nn.
I (on '
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.
NC.··, sir, 1
'
on '
'
Lnow C:h:· t be- c ,
t ( 'n
'
rro U} : nc' t
;_:o
:.:hen!. v
0
ou of c he bu: i.ng''
No. I in
··oun• cO the b<·ck of chc buill'.ing cO lil: l:C fUre i.v
:.n. B:6LIN:
Jlluny is you
.'i(_n' t
notice •;:hc:.:he<·
CUIJli.ng in n< ouc-.: Dh' you not i.cc, or •'i.ci you noc
noc:Lco '>'.'hccl1el' pecnlc were coming oul: of i:he builc'ing
time?
: n. · t
1' •• c•
" '- ..._}
0eve1·: l officers : t -::he : l·er,
lot of people
I ('on't ln1ow wheth
they v:c·:c goinr; in OJ: ouc Ol' noc.
I cou1dn' t s::y th2
Then you wen C: r round to the b: ck of
MR.. R' 1!·:.t'l'ESS : Yes , sir.
:.Q.. B .LIN: :nyonc :.•.·oun. i_n b:cl: \'.'hen
I
•
2
3
:n. D::LE:
: f •.:h .. t bn i_1 ( i
4
5
6
i:h: .. buiJ,'ing'?
7
8
9
'\r,,r (""1· •• le--'c
l '-.._.; ,_) ' - '- ' \_, ._) f;cc, I b?cn
10 by '11: cc milli.on iJaes. lee p:e .:he.·c ts the
11
12
You cr.n'.: i'4Fhc nu:: 'ci'initcly
"
13 C:: \.·h: c: floor i:hc le<:;c woulc' be-:-
14
IS
13:SLIN:
If you c<·n'.:, I l':ouL' c·rthe;: noc
16
you guess, buL if you (o :mm .. T l'.·ouJ.c: to
17
h.· vc you s L:-
18
I believe it
19
nov.r,
o you knCY:.· where
20
21
22
;.m. BELIN: Between v:h:-; L floors is the lc•.:ge?
23
;.J2l. Hi. 1I:lESS: The is bet 1. een, over the
24
Sixth Floor.
25
....
J
''

r.m. BELIN: r.lJ right, '.':ell he in your pol i ce

2 II re;>ort I show you sn.·ye" ' S Deposicion I you
3 II i d the, "t 'itness srys shots c rme f .. Fift h Floor
4 II s Sc hool Book ... " Dirl the
5 II it wns f''Oill the SixLh Floor, or.did he sry it wrs
s II t he Fif (. h Floor?
7 It' R"2f8SS: He sr: icl it wr s from the Fifth
8 11 Floor .
9
tvlR . BELIN: '.Jh,.t were t he exrct worc:s of the
10 11 witness?
11
12
13
"T c..
... l.
MR . Hr The exrcc worc·
1
s of the wit ness,
\.'Z. s unc'e
which woul d pu t it on the
f;ixt h Floor . It wr.s my in Cl hrs t y c ount of
14 II "he floors .
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
f.1R . :.hcl t he witness whrt p2rticulr l
on floor he sEw i t on?
On the floor under the lerge?
tvlR . H.c' l.ICNESS : it we1s t he las i: w indo\'.' ,
whi ch wouL-
1
indic CJte it wou lcl be t he le1s t wi ndow on
the e2st of t he building .
;.rn. BELIN: Did he sny to hi s right as he s rw
it, or did he just s ay t he last wi ndow from where he
wos
MR . H.'.RKNESS : Last wi ndow from where he was
Lhrt point it t hrt it
2
3
6
7
11
12
13
15
16
17
bu i_
, rn
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un
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Yes.
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t :' ;_ 'J: c un
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So t t ','.'OU l_r' be h nf _ J'lm s i -L
18 tnto the un1
1
er9:ss, but sou:h of chc exconsion
19 of .:::1m;
20
21 'i l'.
22
:f:l. D:::L!N:
·.: oul c_' you h: vc been l: of the
23
:..:chool
n,)i)l• Dtjil.·-incr
j_) .. .. --' "-"..:. . ._: -- . u -. ·. - (:>
t h: t time?
24
25
3
4
6
7
9
10
11
12
13
i-ITI
l'.ffi. H_·-
;.IR.
U. o
..1..:..•. :_J.Ji...) o
MTI. B:G!_J IN :
15 i: he l'C '?
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
one of those floors.
23
:-- s he s ;:- •:. :· m:: n 1·: it h ,
24
rounci U:J t
25
,.
No,
No,
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
He di(n'l: it,
rifle
,__.
2
No, si_r.
3
:.IR.
4
I h· ve hi.s
5
.. · , .. s <'")(11)6 ·p ..
- • •..JV.::. <Ui '- --.; •
6
0i.( he s:.y : ny'i:h'nc; c1sc?
7
No, Sil''.
8
Is :nyching elso
9 [:h: • <:.y t '.n zny ,,.: y be :·clcv: nt c:o thts
10
11
No, s i_r.
12
:n. B:SLIN:
13
S:tur(zy I :ssignc? to
IS
Is the···e < nything else you 'i(
16
17 to this : rcr. of inquiry?
18
;.JR. IL'.
19 :'o<.m i:hcl·c, ::nc' I observed Ruby : L the ent:::nce
20
of the ,j;: '.l (0\'.'11 tllc·:·e on S::- tur(:.y.
21
):lR. m:LIN:
You sz.w :1uby ner.r the entrr.nce
22
f t l
. - 1 C' - ' . • ,..,
o 1e J: '· _ on ru l' r y:
23
Yes, sir.
24
MR. BELIN: H:.s your :L·c: r:y been
1 T'; c1"'
,_ .... ·- ' l ...
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
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15
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17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
'· .. ,
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nyDnc else m· .. nything e.l.sc tllr,
n.' i11y '.:tf2 n.-
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B.ST,JN:
l: i. s ; ll ,
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I?·T: :'.ll by or not
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I h: .. ;:: met hi m,
;,ne-.: .,·,ho he t;;; s, but oi:he·: th: n ch:·., th:·t i.s :.ll.
;.m.
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thc··c ny 0 he> ·c· thing you c:-n
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24 : ny 'J:efe ·once, you us ':no•:.·.
25
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l'IARA AP
102-526 (JFK 4CT)
DATE lb/211'L3
VETERANS ADMINISTRATION
SAM RAYBURN MEMORIAL VETERANS CENTER
BONHAM, TEXAS 75418
IN REPLY
REFER TO, 522/116B
June 1, 1978
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
This statement is made on behalf of Mr. Seymour Weitzman on his
request and with his consent.
Mr. Seymour Weitzman, born January 28, 1922, in his capacity of
deputy constable of the Sheriff's Office, personally and from close
distance witnessed the events that resulted in the death of former
President John F. Kennedy. His testimony and account of what he
observed were collected by the Investigators of the Police Depart-
ment of Dallas, Office of the Sheriff of the Dallas County, and
the Warren Commission. His testimony is a of record, and
he has no new or additional information to add to the statements
made at that time.
Since that time Mr. Weitzman was treated for emotional illness
for many years, and is presently a member of the Veterans
Administration Domiciliary at this Sam Rayburn Memorial Veterans
Administration Center in Bonham, Texas. It is of great importance
for his welfare and emotional well-being to excuse Mr. Weitzman
from participation in any further investigations of the events
he witnessed; any information sought from him should be extracted
from his testimony and depositions made at that time.
rC //'
Ute z
Charles Ph.D.
Chief, Service
, __
Show vaeran's full name, VA file: number, and social Jtcurity numher on all correspondmce.
..
"'
"
..,
w
w
•
faa t EIIIJ! a;; t a
--
INVESTIGATION INTERVIEW SCHEDULE
Identifying Information:
Name Roy Eugene Vaughn
Address Route #1,
City/State Midlothian, Texas
Date. ________
Place. ____________ __
•· J .. A '
•.1 c,.... ·- '--·
KENNEDY
Date of
Social Security __
M or s. _____ J_I __ l_c ______ _
Spouse. ____________________ __
Children. ________________ __
2. Physical Description:
Height. ________ __
Color Eyes. _______ Hair __________ _
1'7e i gh t. ________ _
Special Characteristics. __________ __
Ethnic Group. ____________ __
•
.
3. Personal History:
a. Present Employment: ____________________________________ __
Address ________________________________________________ ___
Telephone _______________________ __
b. Criminal Record
1. Arrests. __________ _
2. · Convictions __________ __
4. Additional Personal Information:
a . Re 1 a ti ve ( s) : N arne ______ __;:__ ______________ _
Address. __________________ __
b. Area frequented: ________________ _
c. Remarks: _____________________________
f
t
[
Investigator
Harold Rose / (, u tv-f"
Date 11,122/77
Form 14-B
r
I
•
'
;
t·
f
t
REPRODUCED AT
--
SELECT COMMITTEE ON
KE'::;EDY
NAME Roy Eugene Vaughn Da te _______ Time _____ _
Address Route # 1
Place Midlothian, Texas
Telephonic interview
Interview: By Investigator Harold Rose
Roy Vaughn stated that on November 22, 1963, he was
in patrol working in a two man car. G.W. Temple was his
partner. They worked the South Dallas area. The ate lunch
at Vaughn's house and then were cruising in the area of
Hatcher and Colonial. They decided to switch over to channel 2
to see how the motorcade was coming along and heard what sounded
like mass confusion. They switched back to Channel 1.
dispatcher sent all squads in the downtown area to Elm and
Houston, Code 3 (Emergency). Someone on the air asked what
happened. The dispatcher said Signal 19 (Shooting) involving
the President. They proceeded to the area and pulled up on
Houston Street, on the west side of the T.S.B.D. After Vaughn
I
and Temple got out of the car, Vaughn lost track of Temple.
Vaughn stayed on the east side of the T.S.B.D. he had parked
the car on the curb on the east side of the T.S.B.D. A
security guard came of the building across from the T.S.B.D.,
now the Museum, and had_a man in custody. The guard told
vaughn that he took the man into custody because he didn't
belong in the building. The guard turned the man over to
Interviewer ___________ -:-------
(SignatureU , /
Harold Rose
(Typed)
D a t e T r a n s c r i b e d __ -'-7 ___ by 1 :
(In,
,,
T
•
•
'
r
f
.
.
(?.G 23 3)
t ''Jnn
- 2 -
vaughn. vaughn took the man to the Sheriff's office and
turned him over to a deputy sheriff (name unknown) . Vaughn
then returned to the T.S.B.D. he heard someone say that some
men had jumped into a box car down by Union Station. He told
a Sergeant in front of the T.S.B.D. Vaughn, Bill Bass, Marvin
Wise and another officer (name unknown) ran down the tracks
for 3 or 4 blocks to the grain cars near Union terminal.
Vaughn'climbed up and went to the rear of a car. He looked
into an open car and saw three men at the opposite end of
the car, kind of lying down. Vaughn pulled his revolver and
ordered the men out of the car.
. .
The men came out of the ·car.
Bass and Wise took the men to the Sheriff's office.
and the other officer rode the Caboose back to the area of
the T.S.B.D. and got off. Vaughn said that he did not look
in any other grain car. He stayed in the area of the T.S.B.D.
and heard on police radio that an officer had been shot. He
couldn't get his car out of the parking jam to go to Oak Cliff.
At some point, he went into the T.S.B.D. and was on the floor
where the rifle was found. He remained in the area of the
T.S.B.D. until released.
On Sunday, November,24, Vaughn was working relief.
Sometime in the morning he got a call to go to the Patrol Office.
on the 2nd floor of the Court Building. On arrival, there
were several other officers there. Lieut. R.S. Pearce came
in and told him to see Sgt. P.T. Dean in the basement and get
d
I
REPRODUCED
·.· .. ..... ~ , . ~ ........
--
- 3 -
his assignment. When Vaughn got to the basement, Sgt. Dean
was busy and couldn't talk to him. Vaughn told Sgt. Putnam
what Lt. Pearce had told him and Sgt. Putnam made the assign-
ments. Vaughn was assigned to the ~ a i n Street entrance to
the basement. He was not to let anyone without a Press Pass
into the basement. As he started up the ramp, he met a man
coming down. ,He challenged the man, who produced identification
from the Department of Public Safety. Vaughn went up the
ramp to Main Street, where he observed former Dallas police
officer N.J. Daniels standing outside the Main Street entrance
to the basement. He talked to Daniels a while. Later on
Sgt. P.T. Dean came up the ramp and told Vaughn that two
armored cars would come into the basement but he didn't k n ~
which side they were coming in. Vaughn checked several I.D.'s.
An armored truck came and backed down the Commerce Street
side. The truck couldn't get all the way down. Vaughn saw
what he described as confusion in the basement. Vaughn saw
a police car with its red light flashing, back up in the
basement and start up the Main Street ramp. In the car was
Lieut. Pearce, Sgt. Maxey and Sgt. Putnam. Vaughn had to step
aside to let the car out. Prior to Lt. Pearce's car coming
out, a man pulled up to t.he entrance in a squad car. This
man was Tommy Chibolt, a mechanic in the police garage.
Chibolt told Vaughn that he was supposed to check the parking
situation in the basement. Vaughn told Chibolt to park the
car on the street and he then let him walk down the ramp.
{
I
t
r
t
REPRODUCED AT THE
• ... ,. "'!"!
"
(RG 2 3 3)
• ':14 •••
- 4 -
Vaughn stepped back into the entrance way after Pearce's car
went by. In a few minutes, Vaughn heard someone in the base-
ment say, "here he comes." There was mass confusion and a
bright light came on in the basement. Shortly, thereafter,
Vaughn heard a muffled noise and saw a scuffle. He saw a
hand come out of the crowd and another hand tried to grab
the hand as if struggling for a weapon. Shortly thereafter,
a man broke loose from the crowd and started running up the
ramp toward Vaughn. A reserve officer grabbed the man.
Vaughn drew his revolver. The man identified himself as
Detective D.M. Burgess, now deceased, was released and came
up to Vaughn. He told Vaughn that a reporter had shot Oswald.
'
Vaughn stayed at his post. After a while, a man came up to
Vaughn and mentioned Ruby's name and said he wanted to talk
to someone. Vaughn took the man to the information clerk and
turned the man over to a detective. In a short while, Vaughn
was relieved. Later in the day, Capt. Talbert called Vaughn
and asked if he knew Jack Ruby. vaughn said that he did know
Ruby. On Tuesday, November 26, Lieut. Pearce called Vaughn
at home and told Vaughn to come in and write a special report
on the incident. Tuesday and Wednesday, Vaughn worked extra
with NBC newstream. Sometime Honday or Tuesday, Vaughn became
aware that Ruby had supposedly entered the basement through
the Main Street ramp. Vaughn stated that he called N.J. Daniels
and asked him if he saw anyone go down the ramp when Lt. Pearce's
car came out of the basement. Daniels told Vaughn that he
'·
. ,- .
-
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• A_T},HE

2 3 3)
, ....
- 5 -
didn't see anyone go down the ramp.
\'lednesday night, Lieut. Pearce called Vaughn and told
him to come in Thursday, Thanksgiving Day, the Chief wanted
to talk to him. Thursday morning, he was told to report to
the Patrol Office. On his arrival, Chief Fisher, capt. Talbert
and Lieut. Pearce were in the Patrol Office. They all went
into Chief Fisher's office, where Vaughn verbally related his
actions on the day of the Oswald shooting. Chief Fisher asked
Vaughn if he would take a Polygraph. Vaughn was upset because
he felt they doubted his integrity, but agreed to take a
Polygraph. Vaughn went to the 4th floor and was given a
Polygraph by Paul Bentley. It was quite lengthy. After
finishing the test, vaughn went back to the patrol office and
asked if he could go home because it was Thanksgiving, and was
given permission to go home.
The FBI came to his home on two different occasions and
interviewed him. He was called to testify at the Federal
Building in Dallas and was interviewed by a Warren Commission
attorney. The attorney showed Vaughn both of his FBI interviews,
Vaughn stated that the first interview was not exactly as he
had related to them. vaughn made notations on the first
interview where he corrected it. He said the second interview
was correct. The attorney questioned him about knowing Ruby.
Vaughn stated that he knew Ruby from getting calls to the
was
Vegas Club. He/never in the club on a social visit. He had
talked to Ruby on a few occasions and definitely knew Ruby
when he saw him.
r
-1 2 4
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• 3 •



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.. (RG
233
)
--
INVESTIGATION INTERVIEW SCHEDULE
Identifying Information:
Date 11/11/77
Name Lee Bass
Address 616 Jardin
City/State Mesguite, Texas
Place pa11as Police Headquarters
Date of Birth. __
Social Security
-------
Physical DescriEtion:
Telephone 285-3665
M or s. _______ _
Spouse. __________ _
Children ________________ __
Height
Color Eyes ______ Hair ______ _
l'leight
Ethnic Group
Special Characteristics _______ __
.
< '
.
.
Personal History:
a. Present Employment:
pall as Police oeQartment
Address
Telephone
b. Criminal Record
l. Arrests
2. Convictions
Additional Personal Information:
a. Relative (s): Name ______________ _
Address ______________ _
b. Area frequented: ________ _
c. Remarks: years on Dallas P.O.; presently assigned to
Legal Liaison Unit.
Investigator Harold Rose
Date
11/22/77
Form #4-B
•
f
t
-
. REPRODUCED AT THE NAT .. IONAL £)
. . ARCHIVES
- ofo,. '
0
'1 ,_ 233)
--
SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS - Kennedy
NAME Billy Lee Bass Date ll/ll/77 Time 10:40 a.m.
Address 616 Jardin Place Dallas Police Headquarters
Mesquite, Texas
Interview:
.Billy Lee Bass stated.that on November 22, 1963 he was
assigned to a one-man car in patrol, either number 21 or 101.
He had come into town in company with another officer (name
unknown) to book a prisoner. Officer Bass cannot remember if
he drove his car or the other officer drove. After having the
subject booked, the officers headed back to their work area.
They stopped for the motorcade at Cedar Spring.
After arriving back in their area, they got into their own
vehicles. He was cruising south on Harry Hines Blvd. near
Wolfe Street when the dispatcher came on the air and told
Bass to report to Elm and Houston (Code 3- Emergency).
After driving several blocks, Bass asked the dispatcher what
the nature of his call was. The dispatcher said either shooting
at the President or shots fired at the President. The
dispatcher ordered all squads to report to Elm and Houston.
Bass said that he believes he was one of the first units
to arrive at the scene. He parked his car headed north at the
southwest corner of the T.S.B.D. He took the shotgun out of
the car. Everyone was running around
(
in mass confusion.
'> •)
lnterviewer __ __ cG __ __ ?J ___
(Signature)
Harold Rose
(Typed)
Date Transcribed ____ ______ by am
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Billy Lee Bass Interview ... page 2
Somebody pointed to the T.S.B.D. and said: "He's still in the
building." Bass took a position on the s.w. corner of the
T.S.B.D. so that he could see anyone running out of the building.
Somebody, Bass said it may have been Sgt. Dave Harkness,
said three men ran down the railroad yard and got into a grain
car. qave Harkness, Marvin Wise, Roy Vaughn and Bass ran down
the railroad tracks about one-quarter mile to the grain cars.
Roy Vaughn climbed up the ladder on one of the cars and saw
three men huddled in the corner of the freight car. Vaughn
ordered the men out onto the ground and the men cursed at
Vaughn. Officer Vaughn then jacked a shell into the chamber
of his shotgun, pointed it at the men and ordered them out of
the car. When the men got on the ground, they were given a
good pat-down for weapons - but none were found. The men were
marched up the railroad tracks to Elm Street, across the
front of the T.S.B.D., across the street to the county jail,
and turned over to a Deputy Sheriff (name unknown). Bass
went back to the front of the T.S.B.D. and shortly thereafter
heard a call come over poLice radio that an officer had been
shot in Oak Cliff. Bass stated that he couldn't get his car
out of the parking jam-up to go to Oak Cliff. He stayed
around the area of the s.w. corner of the T.S.B.D. until about
5 p.m. when an order came out for the day shift officers to
report to the garage .
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Billy Lee Bass Interview ... page 3
To his knowledge, no other boxcars were searched after
the three men were apprehended.
He observed that the three men had hobo type clothing on,
but from the neck up were clean shaven and had good haircuts.
The men did not say anything while being taken to the
Sheriff's office.
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I NVESTIGATION I NTERVI E\v SCHEDULE
dentifying Information:
Date __ __ __ Name Marvin Lynn Wise
Address 7015 Overlook Drive
City/State Dallas. Texas
Place
Dallas Police Headquarter s
Date of Birth __
Telephone 381-7382
M or S
---------
Social Security __________________ _
Spouse ____________________ _
Children
-------------------
2 . Physical Descrirtion:
Color Eyes Hair
Height
------- ---------
---------
i g h t ________ _
Ethnic Group ____________ _
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3 . Pers onal History:
Special Characteristics
a . Present Employment: ___ ______ _
Address ____________________________________________ _
Telephone ____________ ___
b. Criminal Record
1. Arrests
----------
2. Convictions
--------
4 . Add itio nal Personal Information:
a . Re lative( s ): Name ________________________ __
Address _____________________ __
b. Area frequent ed: _______________ __
---------
c. Re ma rks: 19 years on Dallas police Dept ; presently assigned
to Intelligence Unit.
Investi gator Harold Rose
Date 11/ 22/ 77
Form #4 - B
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SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS - Kennedy
NAME Marvin Lynn Wise
Date 11/14/77 Time 9·00 am
Ad d r e s s _ __,7_,0 ... l....._5 Place
Dallas police Headquarters
Dallas. Texas
Interview:
Marvin Wise recalls that it rained on the morning of
November 22, 1963.
He attended roll call and was assigned to
#71 District, Radio Patrol, in South Dallas. His regular
partner! A.R. Brock, was assigned to #69 District for that
day. Wise handled about two or three calls,and about 12:15 p.m.
he received a Robbery in Progress call at Lamar and Cockrell.
Wise stated that he was at the far end of South Dallas, anq on
,
the way to the call he heard the dispatcher tell somebody to.

switch to Channel #2. Out of curiosity, Wise flipped to Channel
#2 and the dispatcher was telling someone to go to Parkland
Hospital - there had been a Signal 19 (shooting) involving
"The Man." Wise switched back to Channel #land the dispatcher
was sending all cars to Elm and Houston, with the exception of
one car in each part of the city to remain and patrol its area.
The dispatcher called #71 and Wise was just arriving at the
robbery scene.
The dispatcher told #71 (Wise) to go Code 3 (Emergency)
.
to the T.S.B.D. and report to the supervisor. He arrived and
parked near the railroad tracks. Wise went to the T.S.B.D.
7

(Sign'ature)
Harold Rose
(Typed)
Date Transcribed ll/22/77
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Lynn Wise Interview ... page 2
and was assigned to the west side of T.S.B.D. He was sitting
in his car and a man working in the Railroad Building waved
at him. Wise and another officer (name forgotten) were
told by the man that three men got into a boxcar about four
or five hundred yards down the track. Wise, in company with
Bill Bass, Roy Vaughn and Middleton, went to the boxcars
and took the men off the boxcar. Wise stated the men acted
scared and he could smell wine on the breath of one of them.
Wise took the men over to the Sheriff's office and, while
waiting to turn them over, asked the men for identificati9n.
'
Wise stated that he believes two of the men had documented
.:
He wrote the identifications down on paper and put them in
his hat. He turned the men over to the Sheriff's office
(Deputy's name unknown) and went back to his radio. He
heard over the police radio that a policeman had been and
a little later heard that it was J.D. Tippit. He was told to
remain at the T.S.B.D. and stayed there until relieved. Wise
stated that he put the paper with the tramps' identification
on it in his locker, where it remained for over a year. He
cleaned his locker and just after that people began
asking him for the information - but he had thrown it out.
On November 24, Wise was originally assigned in the basement
behind a TV camera. Then he was moved to the corner of Elm
and St. Paul for security and to hold traffic when the armored
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Marv in Lynn Wise Interv iew . . . pa ge 3
car came by .
He stated that after a short while he heard
sirens. Sgt. Fluschette came by and said Oswald had been
shot. Wise and Officer Brock were sent to Parkland Hospital .
Wise guarded the operating room until he was relieved and was
told by Sgt . Fluschette that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald. Wise
stated that he knew Jack Ruby even before he became a police
officer. He and his wife liked to dance a nd would go to
Ruby ' s Vegas Club . He stated that Ruby was pro-law- enforceme nt.
Relative to the photograph showing Wise leading the
tramps , be advised that Wise stated that he had an ear
infection from swimming and had cotton in it . He stated that
4
it probably was hanging out because he had run a good distance
and it may have come loose . He said that his doctor the n is
still his doctor now: Dr. Kendall Moore , 10611 Garland Rd .,
327- 4584 . Wise stated that the odd looking shoes he was
wearing were in fact low-cut galoshes or overshoes . He
worke d South Dallas, and very f ew streets were paved- mos t
were sand and dirt. He wore them because it had rained in the
morning and he kept them on .
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SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSI
NAME. __
Date 10/26/77 Time 9·20 a.m.
Address Summit
Place Dallas Texas
Phone: 214/821-5659
Interview: by J.P. Kelly and Harold Rose
Harkness was interviewed at 9:20 a.m. on 10/26/77 at the
County of Dallas ?robation Office on Thornton Expressway. He
27 years with the Dallas P.D. and has been retired for
the four years.
Harkness was questioned about his activities in
connection with the JFK motorcade in Dallas on 11/22/63.
Harkness road a three wheel motorcycle. He says that his
function on that day was to supervise the areas Main to Field
Streets and Elm and Houston Streets on the parade route to
see that no obstructions to the parade were permitted. "Just
before the motorcade was due, a man suffered an epileptic
seizure. We called an ambulance from Parkland for him. This
incident took place near the pool on the West side of Houston.
I went to the corner of Main and Houston and the' motorcade
came by. I parked my bike and started to cut diagonally across
the grassy area when I heard the shots. The President's car
slowed, almost stopped. A second and third shot came close
together. I couldn't tell where they came from. I went back
to my bike and drove to Industrial Blvd.
In t ervi ewer __
(Signature) ,?/
I didn't see anything
(Typed)
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that way so I went back to the area of Elm and Houston.
There was a iittle colored boy. Euins was his name. He
was a school boy. He said he saw a rifle come from the
window of the School Book Depository. The boy gave no
description of a person, he just talked about the rifle.
I took him to the TSBD and turned him over to Inspector
Sawyer;" Harkness told us.
Either Sawyer or Lumplain gave him an assignment to
search the railroad cars and he helped roust the "three
tramps." He did not know their names or what happened to
them. They were taken to the Sheriff'soffice. He recalls
that the names of two escorting policemen were Wise and Bass.
Harkness then told us that on Saturday morning, Nov. 23,
1963, he was again at Houston Street across from the county
jail. It was not known when Oswald was to be transferred
from Police Headquarters to the county and they were guarding
the area in front of the alley-way entrance to the jail.
Jack Ruby came up and was attempting to get past the police
barriers. Harkness, who knew Ruby, ordered him behind the
rope at Elm and Houston StreeGdiagonally across the street
from the TSBD. At that time, a lumber truck came by and
dropped a load of 2x6's on the street. While Harkness was
yelling at the driver, a man from CBS News was standing
there watching Harkness' discomfort. He said: "Don't worry,
Sgt. we'll know when he's being transferred long before you
d0.
11
(con'td. on pg. three)
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hii••U••t t..a !H "It:
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Harkness touches upon another point of interest in
connection w1th Lee Harvey Oswald. Marina Oswald (Porter)
in her book "Marina & Lee" says that on only one day Oswald
handed out Fair Play For Cuba leaflets in Dallas. Harkness
says he received a call from a DPD officer Walter Finigan
one day that a man was handing out pro Castro literature
downtown. When Harkness arrived at the scene which he says
was near the Piccadilly Hotel at Main and Ervey Streets, the
person was running away. Finigan asked Sgt. Harkness if he
should go after the subject. Harkness told him "No, just
leave him alone." Harkness told us there was no complainant
and there was nothing he could charge the man with. He says
he never saw the man's face,but he knows it was Oswald.
Harkness furnished us with a crude drawing of Dealy Plaza
area showing his location and others on ll/22 and 23, 1963.
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SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS
Name
James Herbert Sawyer
Date
5 24 78
Time 9:30AM
Address Rt. J. Box J92A
Place3254 Irving Boulevard
Frisco, Texas
Dallas, Texas
Interview: Mr. Sawyer was interviewed by Staff Investigator
Joseph J. Basteri at his restaurant, Jan's Coffee Shop, located
at 3254 Irving Boulevard, Dallas, Texas. He has owned and operated
this restaurant since his retirement from the Dallas Police Depart-
ment in 1967. Sawyer recalls that on November 22, 1963, he was
assigned to be in charge of a detail of men on the upper portion
of the Presidential Motorcade. A few minutes after the President.
had passed him, he heard over the radio that shots were fired from
the Texas School Book Depository. Sawyer, who held the rank .of
Inspector, immediately rushed to this and had it secured.
He·then organized a group of law-enforcement officers from the
Dallas Police Department, FBI, Secret Service and the Sheriff's
Office instructing them to find witnesses and possible suspects.
These witnesses were brought to the Sheriff's office where affi-
davits were taken. Sawyer had also sent a team to search the rail-
road yards as there were reports that shots may have come from
that direction· 'and also it was good investigative procedure to
cover all surrounding areas. He recalls his men finding the three
'nte<viewe<
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Date transcribed
9 19 711

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Sawyer Interview
Page two
hobos in a box car. Sawyer did not personally interrogate these
men, but said that they did look like hobos. Sawyer did remark
that a few years ago a writer had called him challenging several
details of a photo he saw of the police officer escorting the
three hobos. The writer was puzzled as to the type of shoes, gun
and a hearing device the police officer had. Sawyer's answer to
' the writer was that the hearing device was in fact cotton for an
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ear infection the police officer had. This fact was documented
by Staff Investigator Harold Rose. The only requirement the DPD
makes as to shoes is that they must be black and this officer was
wearing black shoes. Lastly, DPD requires only that officers must
be armed with a 38 calibre or more gun. This officer was armed
with a 45 automatic which is not an uncommon weapon for Dallas
police officers. This police officer was later identified as
Marvin Wise.
Although Sawyer was picked to head the unit investi-
gating the operational security involving the transfer of Lee
Harvey Oswald, he had very little to do with it as he was hospi-
talized a week after it was formed.
Sawyer did state that he was
kept well apprised of the progress of the investigation and did
assist Captain Baker who prepared the final report on the conclusion
of the investigation. Sawyer had received periodic information
from his men and after reading all reports submitted concerning
the investigation, he was positive that the shooting of Lee Harvey
Oswald by Jack Ruby was not planned because of the following
reasons:
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RECORD NUMBER
RECORDS SERIES
NUMBERED FILES
REPRODUCED AT THE NATIONAL
JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM
IDENTIFICATION FORM
AGENCY INFORMATION
HSCA
180-10102-10056
AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 006996 [PART 3) (FOLDER 3 OF 7)
Date:OB/13/93
Page:1
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ORIGINATOR
FROM
TO
TITLE
DATE
PAGES
DOCUMENT INFORMATION
DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT
11/22/63
120
SUBJECTS
DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT
RADIO; CHANNEL 1
KENNEDY, JOHN; MOTORCADE
TIPPIT, J.; SHOOTING
OSWALD, LEE; ACTIVITIES OF NOVEMBER 22-24, 1963; ARREST
OSWALD, LEE; MURDER BY RUBY
DOCUMENT TYPE
CLASSIFICATION
RESTRICTIONS
CURRENT STATUS
DATE OF LAST REVIEW
OPENING CRITERIA
COMMENTS :
TRANSCRIPT
u
OPEN IN FULL
0
08/05/93
•
Radio calls from 10;00am 11/22/63 to 6;00pm 11/24/63 channel 1 of KKB-364
Dallas, Tx. Box 134.
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,. D. Mentzel
Hulse
McDaniel
Mentzel
Hulse
McDaniel
Mentzel
R. Hawkins
Hulse
McDaniel
R. Hawkins
Hulse
McDaniel
Hawkins
H. W. Su11111ers
Hulse
McDaniel
; Sunvners
Hulse
McDaniel
C. R.Gilbreath
Hulse
McDaniel
Gi I breath
Hulse
McDaniel
J. T. Smith
• L. Hackney
ulse
cDaniel
ackney
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CALLER
91
Disp
91
Disp
91
211
Disp
211
Disp
211
221
Disp
221
Disp
Disp
Disp
32
Disp
32
91.
91
CONVERSA Tl ON
What do you want me to do with the keys after I lock
that car up?
Just keep them until you contact 223.
IO.Jt.
211
211
Captain Westbrook wants a photographer up here at the
Texas Theater.
5b9 is supposed to be enroute.
Message received.
(l
5b9 is 4oo block E. lOth. He
1
s out down there, he said.
....
m
10-4. Send him on up to the Texas Theater, 221. g.
He
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s got his speaker on. I've already left there.
guess he
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11 come on up.
Go back by and contact him. 49 ••••
Report to the City Hall Identification Bureau, pick up
some equipment, Take down to the scene of the earlier
shooting on Houston.
IO.Jt, I :56 p.m.
32 ••••
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On Shorecrest at the end of the North-South runway,
report to that location, 1:57 p.m.
IO.Jt.
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w
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Hulse
McDaniel
Smith
Hackney
Hulse
McDani e l
Smith
Hackney
G. W. Temple
R. E. Vaughn
Hulse
McDaniel
G. W. Templ e
Vaughn
Hulse
McDaniel
Temple
Vaughn
Hulse
McDani e l
C.I.D.
Hulse
McDan ie l
C.I.D.
Hulse
McDani e l
J.P. Holl i ngsworth
C.l .D.
Special Service
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CALLER
Disp
32
Disp
32
61
Disp
61
Disp
61
Disp
392
Disp
392
Di sp
2+1
361
498
CONVERSATIOO
32 ••••
32.
Keep everyone moved out of that area, when you arrive.
10-4.
61.
•
61.
We have information from the agent out here at T&P.
Said that the train is stopped on the overpass; the
triple overpass; that there was a person jumping at
the 9th boxcar from the front engine. Said he was
hiding in a car.
Is the train stopped there now?
I'm in behind the Texas School Depository. He has
the train stopped. He said it is the 9th car car from
the engine. He climbed over the top of cars. Said he's
hovering down inside.
Any squad Elm & Houston •••
392.
392,
did you rece ive that information?
lo-4. Enroute.
10-4.
2+1 enroute.
361
enroute.
498 is going
back.
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